Hillary Clinton's Powerful Lack of Conviction

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

"She has learned how to be ruthless."

Thus spoke Robert Reich of Hillary Clinton, and I don't think he meant it in a complimentary way -- the way, for instance, in which friends and colleagues of Robert Kennedy spoke of him as being ruthless.

When applied to RFK, the term carried with it a certain wafting admiration for his singularity of mind in achieving some vast social goal of justice or point of honor. His determination to win, at almost any cost, was an inner compulsion directed upward and outward for a higher purpose, whether it was cornering labor racketeers as a Senate counsel, furthering the presidential policies of his brother as attorney general, or advancing the cause of fundamental sociopolitical change in the years before his death as a U.S. senator and presidential candidate.

And then there was the contemporary ruthlessness of, say, a Joseph McCarthy or Richard Nixon; pols who would do or say anything to advance nothing but themselves. Their compulsions began from within and in purpose traveled no farther. Their major battles were always about them -- their egos, their success, their power and its extension. Everything else was secondary.

It was in that sense that the "ruthless" tag sprang to the fertile mind of Robert Reich, a man who has known Mrs. Clinton since their college days and served her husband as secretary of labor. He conceded that hers was probably not a congenital condition -- "I doubt that it came to her naturally, but she has learned" -- as it commonly is with the McCarthys and Nixons of this world. But whether congenital or not, it is what it is, and it is, in fact, upon us.

We need a president who’s a fighter again," exhorts Clinton at rallies, while remaining comfortably afar from any intelligent explanation as to what in hell that means. Just when was it that we lost a "fighting" president? One may not admire what George W. Bush has fought for, but in him there's been plenty of fight. Pugilistic tendencies and the immoderate need to suppress any sign of weakness or compromise have not gone wanting in the political personage of President Bush.

I am not, however, closely comparing Mr. Bush to Mrs. Clinton. For at least the former has always retained a sense of political direction. As wrongheaded as his policies have been -- around the world and at home -- and as tragic as their consequences are, Bush has steadfastly adhered to whatever he somehow manages to believe is right.

With Clinton, on the other hand, it's something of pot luck night, every day. One simply never knows what she'll be willing to put her political reputation on the line for, until, that is, the polling is done.

Oh, that's popular? She's for it. That other thing, the one not so popular? She's dead agin it.

At least we can laugh at her sudden and gallant enthusiasm for that noblest of unprincipled causes: the gas tax holiday. Two weeks ago she wouldn't have known it from a winter retreat at Aspen, but, within hours, quite literally, it became the grandest salvation for working-class Joes everywhere, and its rude denial became America's greatest scourge.

She's a woman possessed. Anything for the little guy -- that's her motto -- even if it's colossally stupid.

What's not so humorous, however, was her similarly opportunistic support for something far more grave (also quite literally): the Iraq war. That vote set the pattern, the one she, hubby and other strategists outlined as the smoothest path back to the White House: just blow wherever the popular winds may carry you.

That vote was, of course, also colossally stupid, but only in the superficial sense of human lives lost and the national treasury wasted. Its deeper importance lay in what it could do for Hillary. War, peace, diplomacy or invasion, they were all the same to her; the only difference was which might play out to her singular advantage. As to that, she was all for it.

Conviction is for beginners; indeed, losers, should conviction run up against personal triumph. And Hillary, as we know, is no beginner, and her life's only mission is now to prove that she's no loser.

Not at all. No, she's a fighter -- you know, like George W. Bush, only without the conviction.

Or those other names now enshrined in the Political Hooliganism Hall of Fame, such as Messrs. McCarthy or Nixon, whom you may or may not have had the unpleasant experience of knowing, unbiblically speaking, firsthand, although they were always prepared to screw anyone who stood in their way.

So, more often than not, was Robert Kennedy. Yet some, such as he (who once even worked for McCarthy until disillusionment set in), acquire the quality of ruthlessness in the pursuit of a higher cause, while others possess it solely as an instrumental stepping stone.

You tell me, from your heart of hearts, in which camp you believe Hillary dwells.

Please respond to P.M.'s commentary by leaving comments below and sharing them with the BuzzFlash community. For personal questions or comments you can contact him at fifthcolumnistmail@gmail.com

THE FIFTH COLUMNIST by P.M. Carpenter

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GO HOOSIERS! GO TARHEELS!

VOTE!

The essence of Clintonism

The Clintons are the ultimate practicioners of poll-driven politics. It was not for nothing that Hillary's chief strategist, until a recent embarrassing conflict of interest came to light, was PR whore Mark Penn, who based every decision on polls, possibly including which tie to wear on a given morning. If the Clintons have a guiding principle it is the belief that their self-interest is what's best for everyone. I can hardly wait for the day when they will be relegated to the back benches of the Democratic Party, that is if they don't pull a Leiberman and become Republicans in all but name.

Hillary's tenacity is more like mendacity

Go ask former Senator Bill Bradley about Hillary's great "fighter" image. The wise former Senator Patrick Moynihan (if he were still alive) would likely give the same assessment. I remember the fiasco of 1993-94 when she was given the responsibility to make a real change in health care - she completely failed and we are still paying the price for that failure. According to Mr. Bradley, who was a powerful member of the senate at the time, the plan may have succeeded because of the widespread dissatisfaction with the issue, but her secretive meetings with big insurers and her indignant treatment of key senate members alienated her and unraveled support for her plan. The downside of that failure coupled with the already widespread distrust and disrespect of the Clintons was the fuel which propelled Newt's little revolution in 1994. QUESTION: Haven't we suffered their mendacity long enough?

Hillary is a far less gifted politician than her husband...

Great comment, WillB. I must say, I am rather disappointed the Obama campaign hasn't knocked some of those "Hillary's record" pitches out of the park.

The plain, objective fact is that Hillary is a far less gifted politician than her husband. He started his 1992 campaign as a dark horse, from a poor state, and (with more than a little help from Ron Brown, the brilliant head of the DNC) went on to win the nomination and general election against a well entrenched incumbent. Hillary has become that "well entrenched incumbent."

She has NOT spoken out vocally or forcefully against the abuses of powers and economic corruption of the Bush Jr. White House, which abuses and economic malaise makes Bush senior's 1992 deficits, recession, and wars (Iran-Contra) seem nostalgic by comparison. (At least Senior won his Iraq war, and had the sense to get out of Iraq.)

Hillary STARTED her run riding a multi-million dollar war-chest, amassed in one of the wealthiest states, by appealing to big donors she had come to know after 8 years in the White House, another 6 years in the Senate, and of course her connections with WalMart and Tysons from Arkansas.

She and her "experienced" campaign proceeded to SQUANDER that huge advantage, and (as PM Carpenter himself pointed out right here) her bragging about "EXPERIENCE" over the past 8 years sounded to millions of Americans more like _COMPLICITY_ with the Bush administration's "tax cuts for wealthy in time of war" assault on the middle-class & working class way of life.

Hillary needlessly and foolishly insulted stay-at-home moms and "stand by your man" country women (with her "I'm not just staying home and baking cookies" and "I'm not just like Loretta Lynn" comments) back in the 1990s - now she is making exactly those rural, suburban, and workin' class women the centerpiece of her electioneering!

Her HEALTH CARE FIASCO was SUCH a fiasco - such a text-book example of an unelected "librul tax-and-spend Democrat government official trying to ram a one-size-fits-all rule down everyone's throats" - that she effectively knocked ALL discussion of health-care reform DEAD for the next 14 years!

Not only that - but her 1993 secretive arrogance and dictatorial style gave Repubs the very ammunition they needed to stage their palace coup and sieze control of both House and Senate in 1994!

The amazing thing is, given the dearth of her actual accomplishments (besides her husband's 1992 and 1996 campaigns, and her own 2000 and 2006 campaigns in a very blue state with her husband's presidential rolodex and donor list at hand), is that Hillary supporters are convinced she is such an effective, get-things-accomplished politician.

Not so!

Like a Republican, she has HAD to RESORT to a SMEAR-and-FEAR campaign... precisely because she has so little to brag on!

(By comparison, the Obama campaign has accomplished what the 1960 Kennedy campaign did... but without the Kennedy family fortune, Boston Political machine, Lyndon Johnson Texas political machine, or Catholic Church's assistance; the Obama camp has done what the Clinton-Gore "war room" did in 1992, but without the fantastic assistance of Ron Brown and the DNC, who, long before Clinton showed up, had already UNITED the elite, big-donor high-society wing of the party, with the workin' stiff, blue-collar, down-in-the-trenches and inner-cities and towns core of the party.)

Not to mention, Hillary's "OBLITERATE IRAN!" comment is downright childish and vainglorious. Neither Bush nor Cheney have been so quick to put it so bluntly - even though Cheney's speech before AIPAC (in DC, in March 2007) had them on their feet, cheering for the coming attack on Iran.

http://www.aipac.org/2785_2859.asp

Doing little to avert the Bush-Cheney assault on the US Constitution and jobs, benefits, and wages of Working Stiff Americans... while TOPPING them in foreign policy saber-rattling bravado - wow.

Excellent Post, v v v c 1......

Well thought out, well stated, well documented......

Curious tho, how come everytime someone makes a post like yours......I NEVER see it contested by Hillary's pit-bull....ya know,.....Yboy??!??

Yes...

...and her mis-managed 2008 Presidential campaign further confirms her lacluster abilities.

All you need to know

All you need to know is the chant you hear at thier rallies. Hillary: Yes she can Obama: Yes we can Clinton is all about them. Obama gives us a real chance to move our country forward as the United States of America.

I did not know that.

It's interesting that the chant at Hillary rallies is all about her, while at Obama rallies, it is about us. I believe that is the perfect illustration of how the two campaigns and their candidates differ.

Not a Whisper of Integrity

The only thing that Billary has going for it at this point is the residual racism in some segments of the population. A commentator about the primary in Indiana recently made this point by saying that even though it may appear that Obama leads there among Democrats, the result will depend upon race. At any point in these long months, Billary could have unequivocally voiced its condemndation of race as an issue in the campaign and rejected any support on that basis. Instead, the opposite was the case. In both small and large ways, in innuendo and vile comparison, Billary has injected and re-injected this contest with the venom of racism. If Billary is placed on the Democratic ticket I can say this - for however long I have to live I will never vote for another Democratic candidate.

Careful, you'll give

Be careful, you'll give hyperbole a bad name.

What, PM? No Hitler ...

.. or Satan comparisons? Are you a little tired this morning ............. or was it the meds adjustment?

What, Yman? No mendacious pseudo-"femnist" closet sexist

"You wouldn't call 'ruthless' a BAD thing if Hillary weren't a woman!!!" rant from you?

I'm disappointed - I was going to tell PM that I could write yours and Thomas M's gibberings today FOR you both, to save time....

What, drprodny? No mendacious racist

"You wouldn't support Hillary if you weren't a racist!" rant from you?

In terms of your disappointment .... that's a shame. But you're probably used to it by now.

BTW - Thanks for the offer to post for me, but no thanks. Rather than having you post, I'd be better off getting my neighbor's guineau pig to randomly walk across the keyboard.

Hey! Did you ever find that imaginary pledge by Hillary where you thought she "pledged" the Florida and Michigan delegates wouldn't be seated?

PM's Meds are fine...

I think his comparison of Hillary's recent steep descent into the dark side of politics compares well with the madness of McCarthy and Nixon. However, your suggestion to extend that comparison to Hitler and Satan is clearly over-reaching and not warranted. But it does warrant you reviewing the efficacy of your meds...

You really think so?

........ that's great.

Yes,

...but be careful, drugs are very powerful...Oh, also if Hillary follows through on "totally obliterating" 75 million people it would be a war crime that I don't think Hitler's evil record even matched, if that were possible.

Thanks for the warning about drugs ...

You obviously have expertise in the area.

Yes...

It comes from drinking all that Kool Aid.

PM is absolutely right!

How are you able to deny seeing this in Hillary? It has been obvious for quite some time now. You know, I never had anything against Hillary but she has shown herself to be exactly what PM is saying. What initially did it for me was when she said she didn't believe Obama was Muslim "as far as I know." How manipulative can she be? And then there was the one that the media virtually ignored about sniper-gate. She said at the last debate, I know I said things that I KNEW were untrue and I hope YOU get over it. Us get over it? Us? How about a HUGE apology for the LIE just for starters. And Hillary don't sugar-coated it with the more gentle word "untrue". You LIED Hillary. Say it Hillary, it isn't that difficult to say or is it for you? Oh yeah, She's a real child of Rove. She frightens me with how comfortable she is with lying. I will never trust anything that comes out of her mouth. It is all about Hillary. Her speeches predominately use the word "I". Remember the classic moment in NH when she went misty-eyed and said she found her voice. Again sing that song "me, me, me." With Obama it is always about Americans, not him. I'm so sick and tired and disgusted with the last eight years. I can't bear having another lying, conniving, self-centered Republican crawling around OUR White House.

Now tell the one ...

... about Goldilocks and the three bears. She did apologize for the Bosnia comments. Not good enough for you? Oh well. Would you care to comment on all of Obama's "lies"? No?

"It is all about Hillary"? Because you think her speeches predominantly use the word "I". Really? How many of her speeches have you seen? Have you counted the use of the word? Have you compared her use of the word to Obama's speeches? Of course not .... it's just making stuff up. Like her NH response. Of COURSE the response was about herself. She wasn't being asked about some policy issue. She had just been asked how she, personally, was able to hold up under a grueling presidential campaign. It was a personal question about HER. Seriously ....... how delusional can you be?

Oh wait ..... forget it. I just read the last sentence of your post.

Fairy Tales

Yman is getting confused again. We DO watch Senator Clinton's speeches and her interviews. About the Bosnia sniper fire LIES, she said it happened once, when she was sleep-deprived, and made a little joke about how shocking it must be to see that she is human after all. The LIES did not happen once but at least three separate times, in the AM and the PM. And if sleep deprivation is to blame, who in the sane world wants her answering the RED PHONE at 3 AM in the morning??? As to the New Hampshire sniffles, the question was a personal one, but she turned it to an attack on those "not taking the elections seriously enough" ie not voting for HER, because obviously anyone voting for Obama hasn't given the consequences much thought, right? More of the Obama-maniacs, Obama Kool-Aid drinkers, Obama as a fad fairy tale. Senator Clinton is a legislator and a policy wonk. Those ARE her strengths. Her choice of campaign director, Mark Penn (now demoted to pollster) wrote the book on microtrends and triangulation, and unfortunately Senator Clinton continues to follow this line of reasoning. She collects the data on every location she campaigns in and tells that demographic exactly what they want to hear. Yman, if you find that an admirable trait, then nothing I can say will sway you. But think about this, really think: rather than trying to appeal to every fragmented special interest group (and I'm not talking about lobbyists) as the Dems have been wont to do, wouldn't WE THE PEOPLE be better off AND STRONGER if we united around the interests we ALL have in common? Like Honesty and Transparency in government? Like being our Brothers' and Sisters' keepers? Like Economic and Legal Justice? Like Peace and Prosperity? Like Dignity? Aren't THESE the values that America and Americans stand for? Not TORTURE. Not OBLITERATING our ENEMIES. Not CLUSTER BOMBS. Not PRE-EMPTIVE and ILLEGAL WARS. Think about it Yman. Be a champion for values, and the voters will follow.

Yes, fairy tales ...

... about Obama being a a "new kind of politician" who speaks the truth while Clinton is the "liar." It's about like the one you just invented about the NH response. I don't know the context of the "not taking the elections seriously enough" (since you provide no cite), but to claim that's an attack on Obama's supporters? Seriously? How do you warp those words into an attack on Obama's supporters? Easy ... you just make it up. You think she might have been arguing that the media should focus on more substantive matters rather than her reaction to the question? No, that would be a little too ....... logical.

You DO watch Clinton's speeches? Congratulations. But the claim was that "It is all about Hillary", citing as evidence "Her speeches predominately use the word "I"." It's a ridiculous claim on its face. Did felinetta actually watch the totality (or even a representative sample) of Clinton's speeches and count the "I"s? Did she do the same for Obama and compare the ratio of "I"s in each? No ..... she saw a few clips, heard Clinton say the word "I" a few times and it fit her preconceived narrative of Clinton. It's easy when you make it up.

And re: the Bosnia "lies" - Again, how do you manage to be so offended by these comments when Obama has misstated, exaggerated, and yes "lied" numerous times himself? My point is not that Obama is a bad person - I don't think he is. My point is that he's a politician like Clinton, and attacking her for her misstatements, exaggerations, and "lies" (even when many of them are fabricated) while ignoring Obama's misstatements, exaggerations, and "lies" - as has been the case at BF, Kos, HuffPo, etc. - is ridiculous hypocrisy. As is the claim that Hillary has thrown the "kitchen sink" at Obama, while he has taken the high road and refused to attack her personally or negatively. BTW - Her apology not good enough for you? ................... so sorry.

Think about it Juli. Be a champion for consistency and reality, and the voters will follow.

Yboy,.....The problem with you is.....

To me, you perceive yourself to be some sort of final arbiter of all that anyone says here....as if, your detailed dissections (and subsequent criticisms) of THEIR comments is the indicator of whether those opinions have any validity of not. YOU are so full of yourself, so vain, so pompous....so self-righteously arrogant.

Your hubris---as such it is, fouls up and seeps into the very vectors of this thread and the sewage smells from your egocentric, self-absorbed comments linger a full week after you've departed. This is what I think of you, Yboy: NEVER have I heard you extend ANY encouragement, ANY support, or even simply, ANY acknowledgement that ANYONES opinion---has ANY merit----SAVE YOUR OWN.

This is what I find so detestable about you and your delivery of YOUR opinions,---for they are nothing more. It is not debate. It is not exchange. It is not intellectual repartee. It is not even pointing out a different perspective. It is merely YOU----taking some kind of macabre GLEE in humiliating, in denigrating, what should be, a fellow comrade-in-party. EVEN if you feel there is some sort of disparity, or imbalance, in what you perceive to be a 'ganging on' of Hillary, than even with THAT, at SOME point in time, some comment you posted, some observation you made,....would be balanced by an honest assessment of what many profess here as easily verifiable and documented FACT, of truly detestable things that Hillary HAS ACTUALLY SAID, OR DONE. BUT the way you address,....no,....CHALLENGE someone to prove what YOU already know to be true, its no wonder then, that , THE INCLINATION IS NOT THERE TO "PROVE" ANYTHING TO YOU. You simply are not WORTH THE EFFORT. Further, no one feels an engagement with you is...'sharing' knowledge, but rather, a long, drawn out tit-for-tat process of 'out-googling' each other to see who's found the so-called 'best' cites to support your specious screeds of nonsense---this is all you do when challenged. You are no more than an frustrated gadfly; an intellectual property 'bandit'.

Further, the problem with YOU is, even with this post, you will IGNORE any of these (or anyone else's) OPINIONS AND OBSERVATIONS,; in fact, you then, if you disagree with them, DEMAND they back them up with some cite---to accommodate YOUR opinion of a subject you are already well-versed on, i.e., Hillary. You cannot pick WHAT to ignore, and then DEMAND they produce proof for what you already KNOW to be the truth. It is not about 'enlightening' you---that is impossible. Nor, is it about sharing information, because you already think you know everything. Nor, is it about THEIR INSIGHTS--BECAUSE YOU DO NOT RESPECT THEM ENOUGH TO THINK THEY HAVE ANY. So, in essence, its all about---YOU.

There are no professional investigators here, nor paid essayists, or career journalists that need to "vet" each and every comment they make. Yet, you are FOREVER INSISTING THAT THEY DO SO-----TO PLEASE YOU! I see YOUR conceited posts---you make more egocentric generalizations than any ten people here----do you cite 30 %, or 40 %, or even HALF OF YOUR FATUOUS,INANE RAMBLINGS? I think not! I'm no saint, nor do I pretend to be; I am as hard on certain people here as you; people I perceive to be fraudently deceptive; but you, my friend, are virtually a one-man, self-appointed tribunal of insipid stupidity, attacking (at your leisure) anyone---all up and down this thread, as if YOU were the BF proferred "Thread Police" of proper protocol.

Take the above example, what discredits YOUR imput, or repudiates your comments is that YOU PURPOSELY do silly little time-consuming verbal gymnastics---about, WHATS IMPORTANT TO YOU. When felinetta posted HER comments about Hillary...it was not ABOUT YOUR BLASTED, INANE ARGUMENT OF COUNTING "I's"---it was about the SPIRIT of Hillary's rhetorical content. That is, her whole focus, her entire inner-purpose, is one of self-serving "me-ism's", as opposed to Obama's constant assertions that it is---ABOUT US! ABOUT WE!----and YOU KNOW THIS---but you, as usual, would rather flex your narcissistic 'ego' muscle and glory in your tepid, little witless witticisms like "Goldilocks and the three bears"..." that you often seem to find so cute. I've told you before--you're more interested in your own "satire"---without realizing that the REAL COMEDY----is you! And what is truly sad....is that you don't even realize it.

No one here is confused about the human-ness, or imperfections, of Obama, in terms of human failings, those views are stated here too; if not stated here enough for your satisfaction----than certainly at any of those anti-Obama web-sites that, in fact, you need to consider finding. You would be right at home. You seem to envision yourself as some shining white-Knight guardian of maid Hillary's virtuous honor, by defending fair maiden against all who dare to deign her dignity by making callous statements of her virtue. When in reality you are no more than some quasi Don Quixote fighting every imaginary wind-mill you deem to find on this thread. Ironically, you want to defend her honor against ALL the people YOU CLAIM to be fellows with. (yeah, I like to dangle my participles----so what??) You see my point?---WE ALL make mistakes here, and frankly, I'm quite tired, of having to sift through all your fault-finding exercises in ignorance to read the real posts that have REAL VALUE and MERIT, as opposed to the meandering mush of mental midgets like yourself.

If you are not careful, son.....soon your posts will be like the baleful wailing of a lost pup in the woods----you'll whine and yelp forevermore, increasingly so...until you finally realize...that no one is listening to you anymore........because no one will care about whatever it is you have to say.

No one will care? Except ...

... you'll care, Flirty Harry ... and that's enough for me.

BTW - Was I supposed to read more than the last sentence? I wasn't going to read any of it, but the bold print caught my eye as I was typing my subject line.

Oh well ......... no matter.

Here's an idea

Take some more meds, and when they kick in list Obama's provable lies.

See below ....

... bettysdad.

BTW - Still waiting for your promised condemnation of Obama for pandering for the homophobic vote. Did I miss that, or were you off your meds when you said you would do that?

No, you didn't miss anything

I haven't seen any credible info to back you up. Probably isn't any. I think everyone here would agree that if you say it, it's false.

Time to get your eyes checked ...

'Cause it's right there, and it's not an opinion - and it's a fact. One that's easily verified. How about Huffpo, ABC News, NY Times, The Advocate, The Hill, The Atlantic, Talking Points Memo, Americablog? How about the Obama campaign itself? They circulated a letter (see the Huffpo article) seeking cover after this came out. Why would they circulate a letter about something that didn't happen?

Huffington Post? (anti-Clinton) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/25/obama-campaign-releases-o_n_69892.html

How about another anti-Clinton blog - TPM?
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/10/big_gay_group_condemns_obama_for_campaign_event_with_antigay_singer.php

How about The Hill?
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-pressured-on-gay-cure-preacher-2007-10-24.html

The Advocate?
http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid52812.asp

How about The Atlantic?
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/barack_obama_donnie_mcclurken.php

ABC News?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/liberal-gay-bas.html

NY Times?
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/obama-criticized-over-singer/

Americablog (anti-Clinton)- John Avarosis
http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/obama-great-many-african-americans.html

"I think everyone here would agree that if you say it, it's false." Really, bettysdad? That might just hurt my feelings ............. if I cared. More importantly, you included a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE qualifier in there, and a false one at that.

"I think ..."

Need a link?

Here you go Yman. "Some people think the elections are a game..." http://www.newsweek.com/id/85609 And try following your own advice: what exactly are these LIES that Obama has been speaking, or are you just making it up? As I said, no use trying to sway you. Let's agree to disagree. I'm from Florida, so my Obama vote did't harm a hair on Senator Clinton's head. And no, I don't think it's unfair that my vote doesn't count. We knew when we went to the polls it wouldn't count, and even though the Repugs have never played by the rules (ie 2000), some of us are honest for honesty's sake.

Need some reality?

Here ya go Juli. Look at the whole quote. "Some people think elections are a game: who's up or who's down," Clinton said, her voice breaking and tears welling. "It's about our country. It's about our kids' future. It's about all of us together." She's not denigrating Obama's supporters - she's talking about those (most likely those in the MSM) who focus on the "horse race" nature of the campaign rather than the importance of the election and its effect on the future of our country as a whole.

Anyway, you want some examples of Obama's "fibs", shall we say?

Obama claims in an ad that he doesn’t take money from oil companies or lobbyists, but, in fact, he does. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=E01
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_oil_spill.html

Obama claimed credit for nuclear leak legislation that never passed. "Obama scolded Exelon and federal regulators for inaction and introduced a bill to require all plant owners to notify state and local authorities immediately of even small leaks. He has boasted of it on the campaign trail, telling a crowd in Iowa in December that it was 'the only nuclear legislation that I’ve passed.' 'I just did that last year,' he said, to murmurs of approval. A close look at the path his legislation took tells a very different story. While he initially fought to advance his bill, even holding up a presidential nomination to try to force a hearing on it, Mr. Obama eventually rewrote it to reflect changes sought by Senate Republicans, Exelon and nuclear regulators. The new bill removed language mandating prompt reporting and simply offered guidance to regulators, whom it charged with addressing the issue of unreported leaks. Those revisions propelled the bill through a crucial committee. But, contrary to Mr. Obama’s comments in Iowa, it ultimately died amid parliamentary wrangling in the full Senate." [New York Times, 2/2/08]

Obama and single payer health care – Says he was never for a single payer plan. Obama flatly denied it: “I never said that we should try to go ahead and get single payer. What I said was that if I were starting from scratch, if we didn’t have a system in which employers had typically provided health care, I would probably go with a single-payer system. But the full video of the 2003 speech showed he had, in fact, that advocated a single payer system.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/01/22/lets-go-to-the-video/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=32maPZg_Ukc

Racial awakening from Life Magazine photo - Then there’s the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don’t exist, say the magazine’s own historians. Obama said in a recent interview, “It might have been an Ebony or it might have been … who knows what it was?” (At the request of the Tribune, archivists at Ebony searched their catalogue of past articles, none of which matched what Obama recalled.) http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-0703250359mar25,0,5566072,full.story

Obama minimized his connections to Tony Rezko, claiming to have received only $50,000-$60,000 in contributions from him, but later acknowledged as much as $250,000
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-obama-rezkomar15,0,2968927.story?page=1

Obama "misspoke" about his being conceived because of Selma. "Mr. Obama relayed a story of how his Kenyan father and his Kansan mother fell in love because of the tumult of Selma, but he was born in 1961, four years before the confrontation at Selma took place. When asked later, Mr. Obama clarified himself, saying: 'I meant the whole civil rights movement.'" [New York Times, 3/5/07]

Obama on Clinton's vote for 2001 Bankruptcy law. “I think part of what the American people are looking for right now is straight talk,” Obama said. “They don’t want political talk. I’ll just give you one example. Sen. Clinton and I were debating and she was asked about the bankruptcy law that she voted for in 2001. . . . During the debate she said, you know, ‘I voted for it, but I hoped it wouldn’t pass.’ That was a quote on live TV. That kind of talk, I think it makes people not trust government.” The problem is, Clinton never said it. Clinton said she was “happy that it never became law.” He says she said, “ ‘I voted for it, but I hoped it wouldn’t pass.’ ” The thing is, being happy about something after it happens is not the same as hoping along the way that it wouldn't happen. And yet, the latter is how Obama characterizes Clinton's words.
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/345/

I could keep going, but you get the point, which as I said, is not that Obama is a bad man. The point is that he's a politician, and he's definately not above misstatements, exaggerations, and even "lies."

BTW - You're from Florida so you think it's fair if your vote doesn't count? Of course you do. Not counting Florida's votes helps Obama which, in effect, makes your lack of a vote count even more. On the other hand, there might be a few of the other 1.7+ million voters in Florida who might want their voices to be heard. You knew when you went to the polls it wouldn't count? You do realize the rules don't say that, right? http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/2008delegateselectionrules.pdf While the DNC imposed that penalty initially, the DNC Delegate Selection Rules explicitly give the Rules and Bylaws Committee and the Credentials Committee ultimate jurisdiction over delegate selection. These committees, each in their independent capacities, can seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida at their discretion. They have the authority to reinstate ALL of their delegates, both pledged and unpledged, if they choose to do so. Frankly, a re-vote would have been been the best alternative, but Obama obstructed it at every turn. Don't like it? So if the committee decides to seat some or all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan, those who want the rules enforced can't complain. As they say, "Dems da rules!"

I'm so sorry

But once again you're wrong. Obama has taken money from oil company employees, but not from an oil company or PAC. Factcheck is almost always wrong, and I wrote to them about this (as well as almost everything else they post) but they have not issued a correction. Hall is such a Hillary partisan she lies right into Moyer's face. I guess he buys it because he's getting old. Since the first "lie" you post is, in fact, a lie of yours there's no need to go through the rest of them. Have a wonderful day.

You are sorry ...

... but not in the way that you intend.

Of course he doesn't take money from oil "companies" - no one can do that. It's illegal. You might as well run an ad that says you don't embezzle money. The message is meant to mislead voters (in Clinton world it's known as a "lie") into believing he doesn't take oil money, when he clearly does. His "claim of not taking money from lobbyists is a bit of hair-splitting. It's true that he doesn't accept contributions from individuals who are registered to lobby the federal government. But he does take money from their spouses and from other individuals at firms where lobbyists work. And some of his bigger fundraisers were registered lobbyists until they signed on with the Obama campaign." Not to mention that two of his bundlers are oil company executives.

Next you'll be saying he doesn't take oil "money" because it comes in the form of checks.

More on the New Hampshire sniffles

Here's the relevant portion of the NH Q&A that impugns the non-Hillary voters: "We do it, each one of us, against difficult odds. We do it because we care about our country. SOME OF US ARE RIGHT, AND SOME OF US ARE NOT. SOME OF US ARE READY, AND SOME OF US ARE NOT." Although still emotional, Clinton was hitting the points in her post-Iowa stump speech. Obama's name was unspoken but obvious. "Some of us know what we will do on day one, AND SOME OF US HAVEN'T THOUGHT THAT THROUGH." same link, from Newsweek. She WASN'T hoping it wouldn't pass, but she WAS glad it never became law. Cmon Yman, that is an example of a LIE? Exelon and Rezco are problematic for both Obama and Clinton, as are Ayers and Rev. Jeremiah Wright (Right, Bill Clinton? And oh, let's not forget Farrakan and the PA Governor Ed Rendell.) Yman, we can keep on nitpicking about these non-issues, or we can start differentiating Dems and Progressives and Liberals and Independents and Non-Affiliateds from the war-mongering, corporate fascists who've highjacked the Republican Party and are aligned with Pastors Hagee and Parsley, united behind John McCain, salivating to the tune of "Bomb bomb Iran". What do you say? Are you in it to win it? The White House? The Attorney General? The Cabinet? The next Secretary of Defense? The next Supreme Court Justices? That's what I'm talking about with CHANGE. AND not falling for playing THE GAME by rethuglican rules of distraction and division. Give it a try. There's always Politico.com and Salon.com if you need more strokes.

Being critical of Obama ...

... is attacking his supporters? Seriously? This is not nit-picking, just plain old common sense. She's being critical of Obama - but there's no way she's attacking his supporters. Why the hell would any politician running for office do that? Obama's gone after her plenty of times, but he's not attacking her supporters. It's just a silly argument.

Ayers, Rezko and Wright are problematic for both of them? Please ... are you seriously making that comparison? Besides, the point about Rezko was the lies about their relationship and the amount of campaign contributions he received. I know, I know ... It's okay. Why? He's not Hillary Clinton.

As far as his misstating her position on the bankruptcy bill, yeah ... he put words in her mouth that she never said (BTW - I notice you didn't address any of the others). So you could argue about whether misquoting someone to criticize them in a debate is a lie or merely a "misstatement", but the point remains. It's about the double standarad. Every time Hillary says anything slightly inaccurate, she's attacked as a serial, pathological liar .... or worse. It's been the right wing narrative for 15+ years, and was also used against Gore and Kerry. The difference now is, now the left has someone else preferrred by many of them, and they've decided to push the same story. It was bad enough when the right wing nuts were doing it, but you would think that self-described "progressives" would know better. Not so. Hell .... she gets attacked for statements that are accurate (i.e. Northern Ireland, Trina Bechtel). She even gets attacked by fauxgressives for things where the only "evidence" is a post on Drudge (the Obama Africa photo) or the stuff is just manufactured (Peter Paul trial, Mickey Kantor video, etc.). She's labeled a conniving, do-anything-to-get-elected panderer for proposing a gas tax holiday, while Obama can tour South Carolina with a bigoted, homophobic "minister", because, after all, as Obama says, “a great many African Americans share Pastor McClurkin's beliefs.” Hey pandering to bigots is WAY better than pandering to drivers, right. It's the hypocrisy.

Finally, in terms of a come together, Kumbaya moment ... good luck with that. I don't need it. I've been a Dem all my life, and I'll be voting for whomever the Dem nominee is in November. But I won't join those who have pushed the ridiculous claims about HC, including the claim that she is pathological liar, rule-breaking, election stealing, race-baiting panderer because they've suddenly seen the light and have a "true progressive" alternative.

Funny thing is, if Obama is the nominee and he loses, they'll be right back here on Nov. 6 blaming her all over again.

Hey...

Well said Juli.

Hillary's motto

Hillary says: "Whatever it is, I'm for-gainst it!"

Hill-Billy is this years version of Lurleen Wallace.

She is the penultimate spoiled brat who will do anything and say anything to get what she wants and if she can't get it she'll throw the biggest tantrum in the world to make sure that nobody else can get it. More and more, Hillary has mutated into Lurleen Wallace and just as Lurleen said that if she was elected, ol' George would still be calling the shots, so will Slick Willy. We finally see the truth about the Clintons. They only care about themselves and they are hell bent on letting the rest of the Democratic Party wither on the vine. As for ol Slick Willy, with all the garbage coming out of his mouth he proves that he IS George Wallace wearing a latex mask. We don't need another Monica. We don't need another 4 years with the Whore Press chasing Bill Clinton's zipper. Please, get out and work for Obama in Indiana and North Carolina today so we can send George and Lurleen out to pasture once and for all!

The Epitome of Pandering

Did she actually tell George Stephanopoulos, in response to his comment that Paul Krugman doubted her 'gas tax holiday' plan, that she wasn’t going to listen to the people responsible for the last seven years?

Paul Krugman? One of the people responsible for George Bush's policies? Did she actually say that? Does she think that?

Of course not. She's shamlessly pandering to people who don't know who Krugman is. This Yale graduate masquerading as a working class hero dismissed all economists as 'elitists.'

I try not to despise people I don't personally know, but it's getting awfully difficult in this case.

Wait! there's more

She also said she doesn't put too much stock in economists.

Obama wrong on gas tax!!

Just hit the papers today. What say you now Obombers??? Seems Obama was Wrong about the gas tax.!!!! The only scientific study done on the pass-through of the tax holiday savings to Illinois consumers (and those in Indiana, as well, whose citizens enjoyed a similar holiday) found that it actually worked to a large extent. The study is titled "$2.00 Gas! Studying the Effects of a Gas Tax Moratorium," by Joseph J. Doyle Jr. and Krislert Samphantharak. Download the PDF here. The authors concluded that "the suspension of the 5% sales tax led to decreases in retail prices of 3% compared to neighboring states. And when the tax was reinstated, retail prices rose by roughly 4%." This suggests that the tax holiday delivered at least 60 percent of the tax savings to motorists.

Give the link. Not that it

Give the link. Not that it matters. people saving pocket change is very far from the point.

This isn't about Obama. Yea, I'll vote for him, but I'm not enamored by him. However, when it comes to Clinton I've gone from not enamored by her and will vote for her to will vote for her and take a shower afterwards to will not vote for her because the stain to my soul won't wash out.

That's the impression she's giving to a lot of those on the left who she really couldn't care less about. That last part is key: She doesn't care about the progressive base of American politics. Period.

That's the CommonDreams demographic.

She doesn't want our votes because she feels she doesn't need them. Her DLC pandering ideology demands catering to the center (that 20 years ago was Goldwater Conservative) and center right.

Maybe Obama couldn't give a crap about us either. At least he doesn't make a point of alienating us in a suck up to flag-pin conservatives.

Tell that to an economist.

So, if Obama is wrong, why is his position on the gas tax holiday shared by nearly all economists (including my own son, I might add)? Perhaps it's because they know that with gasoline production already at 100% capacity, there is no incentive for producers to allow the price to fall. Oh, wait, didn't one of Hillary's servants just declare economists to be unimportant? It's sort of like the anti-intellectualism of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, in which barefoot "doctors" were considered more qualified than real doctors. So it is with economists, according to the Clinton campaign. We don't really need their expertise. Geeez, give me a break!

Econ 102

Just because you can site a "study" by people with fancy names (wow, a middle initial!) doesn't mean it's correct, relevant, or unbiased. Things get published all the time, that's no excuse not to think. (And why is there no link?)

The argument against the gas tax is one of supply and demand - supply of oil is pretty much set (this is a good approximation), and so the price will adjust to make the consumption equal the supply. Actually, demand keeps increasing, thus the price increases. It's a traded commodity, subject to pricing by markets.

If you change the tax rate in JUST ONE STATE, the overall change in demand will be small, and it won't cause a huge increase in consumption, and you'll see a benefit (although even in the case you site, 40% of this was offset by some other factor). But what's to say that the overall price of gas didn't increase across the US by a small amount, that is, the cost was just shifted to other states? I'm sure the study didn't look at this, (because you can't really measure it, anyway).

The McCain-Hillary (McCain proposed it, Hillary follows) gas tax proposal is in fantasy economics land. That's why no economist will endorse it. Changing the tax across the entire US won't give us more gas. It won't make people burn less. So why would it change the price?

But think a little harder. Why, on God's green earth, would Obama oppose it if it were a good idea? Because he hates America? Because he, along with every economist in the world, is really stupid? No, he's against it because it's a bad idea. No conspiracy theory needed.

Oh, and a related note, he was also against Bush's "dumb war" in Iraq (his words). McCain-Hillary were for it. Obama has a good head, and his heart is in the right place. Our energy problems are serious. Obama is far closer to the right idea than the other candidates, and he'll also tell people the hard truth. I have a lot of respect for that.

WOW!

So, the average family would save $16.80 instead of $28.00. WOW! That assumes the oil companies would not raise their prices to make up for the new tax they would have to pay, if this would pass in Congress, AND if Bush would sign the bill (dream on, he wouldn't). Billary is pandering again and Santa Claus always gets the votes from the uninformed.

Reference...

...is?

Clinton's Mission

Hillary Clinton is a fighter: I still say she would have made a heck of a great Senate Majority Leader. But after all she and her campaign have done this election season, her judgement is sorely in question. Her supporters may try as hard as they might to minimize her vote for the Iraq War authorization, but that is THE most important issue at this time, at this moment in history. She has since tried to out-macho the BushCo machine, and that is even worse. I feel she still has some good qualities, but her willingness to win at any cost- to the Party and to the Nation- makes her UNFIT to be president. Call it ruthlessness or blind stupidity. At this point, I no longer recognize her as a Democrat, or even as democratic.

What she fights for

Hillary is a fighter.

She will fight dirty when she feels like it -- even if she doesn't need to. It's the fun part, she says.

But what does she fight for?

Truth? Don't make is laugh!

Justice? Ha, as another actor once said, that'll be the day!

America? Well, now if you think America begins and ends with Hillary ....

Otherwise, not on your life!

I suspect she is more stupid

I suspect she is more stupid than ruthless. People who declare Hillary Clinton "smart" are extrapolating too much, I think, from those areas in which she happens to be capable--having a repertoire of policy points at hand, for instance. But is she able, for instance, to imagine herself in someone else's shoes? I don't think so. Her campaigning, thus, is formulaic, uninformed. Imagining himself in someone else's shoes is, I think, something that Obama can do superbly. Bill Clinton managed it pretty well in 1992, although I suspect Obama's "other-shoes intelligence" is more characteristic of the whole than Bill Clinton's is.

Oh, she's smart.

I see no reason to question Hillary's intelligence, but I see it as being applied narrowly to the defense of the status quo. That is why she is unable to think beyond the boundaries that she has set for herself. Obama is equally, if not more intelligent, but he is thinking in ways that are completely foreign--and threatening--to Clinton. When Obama speaks of "change," he is referring to changing in a fundamental way the political system that is based on corporatism and big money. Hillary is a card carrying member of that system and is fighting desperately to preserve it. Returning the government to the people is the last thing that she wants. Strange that none of her supporters see that fact.

Robgo2.....

You wrote:

"Returning the government to the people is the last thing that she wants. Strange that none of her supporters see that fact."

They do. But those 'supporters' of hers are often NOT supporters of the ideals of the Democratic Party, hence, returning the government TO THE PEOPLE is truly something they detest and fear; particularly coming from this so-called 'unelectable' (code: Black) candidate. Lacking the courage and/or conviction to stand behind their racist beliefs--they often disquise their rhetoric in the thin veneer of WE'RE "Hillary-Haters"---for pointing out, what is, in fact, documented occurrences.... THAT is the mantra that allows them access here to waste others time.

There are MANY of them who visit here, purport to be her 'supporters', distract everyones time from progressive discourse with silly minutiae arguments of meaningless blather and self-promotion, (ya gettin' all this, Yboy??) thinking they are operating on some higher plane of 'cause'---for the Repub party; when in reality, it is only 'Operation Chaos'---brought to these pages by fearful, bigoted, small-minded minions totally afraid of the prospects Obama offers that you've already alluded too. Be not afraid....soon...they'll have to stand up for their deceptions, when SHE is no longer a factor, or source for debate, then, we'll see if its REALLY support FOR Hillary, or as I suspect, a last-ditch effort imposed on us, by them, to destroy OUR harmony.